Just getting out from under a timeshare unit that you no longer want

I know some units are worth money, but others are worthless and this time of year a lot of people are expecting their new usage fees to be coming in the mail. So I thought I would come to this sight and try to help others who are desperately seeking a way to get rid of their units like I was.

I had tried for over a year to sell my unit in a one bedroom unit at Silver Seas week 26 red prime. I had no success. I was very happy to have come across this site, though I had not joined, but I was able to read the Forum and I came across a few posts by a person named Warren, who told of his business on ebay. Contrary to a few people who made posts condemning the guy, I decided to look him up on EBAY. Well he did buy my unit of me saving me over a thousand dollars.

I hope this post might help some one as the post I read saved me a fortune.

Thanks Red Week for having this Forum available.

johnd1052 wrote:

I know some units are worth money, but others are worthless and this time of year a lot of people are expecting their new usage fees to be coming in the mail. So I thought I would come to this sight and try to help others who are desperately seeking a way to get rid of their units like I was.

I had tried for over a year to sell my unit in a one bedroom unit at Silver Seas week 26 red prime. I had no success. I was very happy to have come across this site, though I had not joined, but I was able to read the Forum and I came across a few posts by a person named Warren, who told of his business on ebay. Contrary to a few people who made posts condemning the guy, I decided to look him up on EBAY. Well he did buy my unit of me saving me over a thousand dollars.

I hope this post might help some one as the post I read saved me a fortune.

Thanks Red Week for having this Forum available.

What this man is doing is not legal. Your timeshare is probably still in your name with the resort and the county.

jayjay has stated: >> What this man is doing is not legal. Your timeshare is probably still in your name with the resort and the county.<<

You are partially correct (i.e., about the illegal part). This referenced and nearly forgotten "warren" is, in fact, the very same individual who was driven off from these RedWeek forums some months ago, after it was pointed out to him that his phony "trust" scheme was blatantly illegal and essentially constituted criminal fraud.

Johnd1052 has recently claimed in other forums here on RedWeek that he has a copy of the recorded deed relinquishing ownership to "warren" phony shell trust. That may very well be absolutely true. However, johnd1052 seems to completely fail to grasp the indisputable legal fact that a deed created under knowingly and willfully fraudulent circumstances and intent is legally invalid and completely void, whether "recorded" or not. Merely being "recorded" doesn't magically render any deed instantly lawful. I tried to give johnd1052 some cautionary input on this matter, but he was not receptive to having his bubble burst. That's certainly his prerogative, but when the smoke clears away on this fraudulent activity and its' associated void deed, johnd1052 will sooner or later discover that he still owns his timeshare, all of his back fees --- and some additional accrued interest too ---regardless of the bogus "recorded" deed. The intrepid "warrenf" will, on the other hand, sooner or later almost certainly find himself standing before a judge on a criminal fraud charge.

A deed isn't legally valid just because it got "recorded" --- a bad deed is legally void, plain and simple, recorded or not. Any deed created and/or recorded under knowingly, willfully, deliberately fraudulent design and intent won't be held to be lawful or valid ANYWHERE.

I'm sorry to report, johnd1052, that there is simply no "easy" button such as seen on the Staples ads on TV. You can shoot the messenger for delivering this bad news if you wish; I don't particularly care. I'm weighing in only to prevent innocent OTHERS from being drawn in to this obviously fraudulent scheme and falsely believing that they can just so very easily "rid" themselves of their lawful ownership and associated debts with a fraudulently created and/or recorded invalid deed. Unfortunately, it's simply not that easy or simple. You can certainly choose to believe otherwise, but you will ultimately do so at your own peril...

What I don't understand is why this 'warren' person hasn't been banned from advertising on Ebay concerning his fraudulent scheme?

eBay is largely clueless about their advertisers until a formal complaint is subsequently filed by a dissatisfied customer. My bet is that, in this particular instance, the complaints will come pouring in later, but only when the "transactions" and their associated void deeds inevitably become discovered to be legally worthless. It may take a while before the fraudulent scheme is uncovered, but the ultimate outcome is virtually guaranteed...

Just woullike to note about, weather legal or not, after reading what was stated by the few previous posters, not only do I have a copy of the recorded deed transfering ownership out of my name, I checked with the resort and indeed I am no longer the owner. $300.00 and I have no more obligation to that unit ever again.

Sorry Ken and Jay Jay what this man is doing is taking legal rsponsability of units from people. What he does is strictly his prolblem. Nothing can be done to those who sell to him. I checked with my lawyer.

johnd1052 wishfully (but incorrectly) opines: >> Just would like to note about, weather legal or not, after reading what was stated by the few previous posters, not only do I have a copy of the recorded deed transfering ownership out of my name, I checked with the resort and indeed I am no longer the owner. $300.00 and I have no more obligation to that unit ever again.

Sorry Ken and Jay Jay what this man is doing is taking legal rsponsability of units from people. What he does is strictly his prolblem. Nothing can be done to those who sell to him. I checked with my lawyer. << =============================================

Believe whatever you choose to believe, but a fraudulent deed is an invalid, void deed --- plain and simple. It is clear that you are not interested in acknowledging or accepting the indisputable legal facts in this matter. It is equally clear that your alleged "lawyer" must have missed a whole lot of important classes while in law school...

Just for the record, no one here ever stated or implied that anything "can be done to those who sell to him". What WAS stated (and I'll state it again just ONE last time for emphasis and clarity) is that if the underlying trust is knowingly and willfully fraudulent then any subsequent deed employing its name is also fraudulent and therefore void. The fact that the fraudulent, void deed may have been "recorded" and /or the fact that the resort does not (...yet) know that the "recorded" deed is actually fraudulent and void both mean absolutely nothing in the long run. Sooner or later, the underlying fraud will become discovered and dealt with. At that juncture, our intrepid "WarrenF" may well find himself standing in a courtroom, criminally charged with fraud --- and you will find yourself (still) owning the timeshare. Accordingly, I suggest that you consider putting aside some money now and then for those unpaid back bills and their mounting interest charges; they WILL likely be back someday and they most certainly will still be YOUR individual, personal responsibility.

There is no "easy button" to just push and then stroll away from legal responsibility and personal accountability, regardless of whether or not you choose to understand or accept that fact. This is a nation which operates under the rule of law; legality is never superseded by any such little shams and scams, no matter how clever or inventive such unlawful schemes might be.

Again, I sincerely wish you luck. Sooner or later, the day will surely come on this matter when you are going to need it...

johnd1052 wrote:

Just woullike to note about, weather legal or not, after reading what was stated by the few previous posters, not only do I have a copy of the recorded deed transfering ownership out of my name, I checked with the resort and indeed I am no longer the owner. $300.00 and I have no more obligation to that unit ever again.

Sorry Ken and Jay Jay what this man is doing is taking legal rsponsability of units from people. What he does is strictly his prolblem. Nothing can be done to those who sell to him. I checked with my lawyer.

PHILL12 I'm also no lawyer but if intent ever was proven on this because you do understand what this person is pulling and just don't care because it helps you I do think legal action might include you!

What is funny on these timeshare forums is the fact many buyers come on them and whine about being taken, scammed while buying. Then don't think twice of trying same thing or using a system like this to get out of the timeshare!

This might be the only plus for these sales people in the fact many of these buyers not only not to bright and fall for these sales but will in a heart beat do same thing to others to get out!

Don't be shocked if in couple years you get notice of money and interest due or court date!

PHILL12

JohnD,

Some on this thread have suggested you may be guilty of criminal fraud and that in time you may face the bar of justice or at the very least face years of past due maintenance fees together with accumulated interest. There may be more facts than you have disclosed but what you have disclosed does not reveal a criminal intent on your part to defraud another. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of criminal law knows that intent is a key element in criminal fraud. Your statement of the facts indicates no criminal intent on your part.

You sold your timeshare for good and valuable consideration ($300) to a willing buyer. You signed a deed and mailed it to the buyer or the designated closing company. In due course you followed up with the county clerk and verified that the deed had been recorded and then contacted the resort and verified that you were no longer the owner of record. Your last step of due diligence was to contact your attorney and after having disclosed the facts you received a legal opinion that all is well with your end of the transaction. That is appropriate due diligence and in the absence of a criminal intent on your part or knowledge of a criminal intent on the part of your buyer, you have nothing to worry about in my opinion. If your attorney was duly licensed then it is no concern of yours that he/she may have missed some law school classes along the way to his degree and license.

The bottom line is that no one desparate to sell a timeshare should enter into a fraudulent transaction but I see no evidence of fraud on your part in the transaction you described.

C. Glenn

Carvana: With all due respect, I believe that you have summarized numerous pertinent facts quite incorrectly in your post above:

1. Let's start with the fact that Johnd did NOT sell his timeshaere for $300 good and valuable consideration --- he instead PAID intrepid trustee "warrenf" $300 to put the timeshare into the name of warrens' bogus "trust".

2. I don't believe that anyone here has ever stated (or even remotely implied) that Johnd was "guilty" of anything, including criminal fraud. I suggest you read the posts more carefully...

3. Speaking only for myself, I saw and clearly stated (and I gladly assert here once again) that a deed knowingly and deliberately prepared under the guise of a phony, non-existent "trust", created on paper solely to evade resort fee collection efforts, would at some point be discovered and determined to be invalid and void.

4. Personally, I see "WarrenF", the proud creator of the bogus "trust", who has previously and openly proclaimed in several forum posts his premeditated plan and intent to "stiff" resorts for all past, present and future maintenance fees, as the one and only person in this matter revealing criminally fraudulent intent (and performing specific overt acts clearly demonstrating actual fulfillment of that intent). To my knowledge, even after re-reading all posts in this thread, NO ONE has ever stated or implied in any way that Johnd shares that same dubious criminal status.

All the above facts now more correctly summarized than in your inaccurate "recap" version of events and prior statements, let's cut right to the chase of the real issue:

Do you acknowledge that Johnd, despite having PAID "warrenf" $300, is NOT relieved of personal responsibility for his (JohnD's) unpaid fees if / when the "new" deed (with warrenf's bogus, shell "trust" as the grantee) is subsequently found to be invalid and void, albeit "officially recorded"? That's a simple, very straightforward question....

ken1193 wrote:

eBay is largely clueless about their advertisers until a formal complaint is subsequently filed by a dissatisfied customer. My bet is that, in this particular instance, the complaints will come pouring in later, but only when the "transactions" and their associated void deeds inevitably become discovered to be legally worthless. It may take a while before the fraudulent scheme is uncovered, but the ultimate outcome is virtually guaranteed...

----------------------------- The problem with the eBay complaint process is it usually takes more than 60 days to learn something is wrong with a timeshare transfer yet eBay will not do anything about a closed auction over 60 days in the past. eBay is far less responsive to customer complaints than to corporate complaints. Even then they do their best to do nothing. If you recall the Tiffany's lawsuit, eBay finally won. It is Tiffany's full responsibility to police eBay auctions for fake goods, then notify eBay. Only then does eBay have any responsibility. Think about it, how much can you proove in the span of a 7 day auction to get it or the vendor delisted?

carvana wrote:

JohnD,

Some on this thread have suggested you may be guilty of criminal fraud and that in time you may face the bar of justice or at the very least face years of past due maintenance fees together with accumulated interest. There may be more facts than you have disclosed but what you have disclosed does not reveal a criminal intent on your part to defraud another. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of criminal law knows that intent is a key element in criminal fraud. Your statement of the facts indicates no criminal intent on your part.

You sold your timeshare for good and valuable consideration ($300) to a willing buyer. You signed a deed and mailed it to the buyer or the designated closing company. In due course you followed up with the county clerk and verified that the deed had been recorded and then contacted the resort and verified that you were no longer the owner of record. Your last step of due diligence was to contact your attorney and after having disclosed the facts you received a legal opinion that all is well with your end of the transaction. That is appropriate due diligence and in the absence of a criminal intent on your part or knowledge of a criminal intent on the part of your buyer, you have nothing to worry about in my opinion. If your attorney was duly licensed then it is no concern of yours that he/she may have missed some law school classes along the way to his degree and license.

The bottom line is that no one desparate to sell a timeshare should enter into a fraudulent transaction but I see no evidence of fraud on your part in the transaction you described.

C. Glenn

---------------------- Hello?

Yep, OK. On paper it appears JohnD sold his timeshare in good faith and thus is legally safe. But we all know this isn't the case. If the facts come out that JohnD conspired (ok, came to an agreement) with a "buying party" allowing him to sell his unit to a buying party he agreed would be set up specifically to own and never pay the mainenance with the specific intent to aid him in eliminating his obligation to pay his maintenance, those fact will show he had criminal intent.

Personally I doubt a resort would spend the time and money to prove this. It just costs too much relative to the value of the annual maintenance. It will cost less to repossess the unit and sell it to someone else. HOWEVER, if Warren is causing 10/15/25 units at a resort or a resort group to default, that's another matter. I think they'd spend more time on warren.

Ken,

In my opinion, you are the most literate and knowledgeable of those who frequently post on this site. I respect the opinions you express and think each is well reasoned and supported by the facts. I think anyone who joust with you does so at his/her peril. I am by nature and experience a consumer advocate and will always err on the side of the consumer and maybe I did so here but I think the developers and owners associations can take care of themselves and typically have deep pockets to do so.

I will humbly try to address each of the points you make.

1. Let's start with thefact that Johnd did NOT sell his timeshaere for $300 good and valuable consideration --- he instead PAID intrepid trustee "warrenf" $300 to put the timeshare into the name of warrens' bogus "trust".

My response to 1.

JohnD does not specifically say he paid the Warren Trust $300 to take the timeshare . He may have implied it but he did not say it. He did specifically say that the trust bought his unit. See his Oct 23 post where he says, "Well he did buy my unit". That statement is not true unless he received some consideration from the trust. I took him at his word. He later says on 11-7 that "Nothing can be done to those who sell to him. I checked with my lawyer." So twice he said he sold the unit.

2. I don't believe that anyone here has ever stated (or even remotely implied) that Johnd was "guilty" of anything, including criminal fraud. I suggest you read the posts more carefully...

My response to point 2.

You said on 10-25 that ". . .a deed created under knowingly and willfully fraudulent circumstances . . ." is a fraudulent act. Your prior posts on this and other topics lead me to believe you are an attorney or have a legal background. If true, you know that a deed is not "created" until it is executed or signed by the grantor. Your sentence stated or at least implied, in my opinion, that one who knowingly signs a fraudulent deed (JohnD) is guilty of fraud.

3. Speaking only for myself, I saw and clearly stated (and I gladly assert here once again) that a deed knowingly and deliberately prepared under the guise of a phony, non-existent "trust", created on paper solely to evade resort fee collection efforts, would at some point be discovered and determined to be invalid and void.

My response to point 3.

You are assuming and maybe correctly that the trust was a shell or alter ego of someone named Warren. Someone, either the trust or JohnD, notified the resort of the change in ownership and they according to JohnD changed their ownership records removing JohnD as owner. I personally think a deed transferring ownership to a trust or corporation places a burden on the resort to verify that the trust or corporation is not a sham. The resort's failure to do any due diligence on a questionable grantee coupled with JohnD's insistence that he was unaware of my fraudulent activity frees John of any future obligation to the resort. If in the future, the sham trust fails to pay MFs, the resort must look to the owner of record to collect. Once they discover the trust is a sham, then, in my opinion, they must make an effort to pierce the trust veil and go after Warren personnally. I think that any effort to collect from JohnD should be met with an agressive suit or counter-suit as appropriate because JohnD is free of any wrong doing based on the limited facts he discloses.

4. Personally, I see "WarrenF", the proud creator of the bogus "trust", who has previously and openly proclaimed in several forum posts his premeditated plan and intent to "stiff" resorts for all past, present and future maintenance fees, as being the one and only person in this matter being of criminally fraudulent intent (and, for that matter, specific overt acts clearly demonstrating actual fulfillment of that intent). To my knowledge, even after re-reading all posts in this thread, NO ONE has stated or implied in any way that Johnd shares that same dubious criminal status.

My response to point 4.

We are in agreement that Johnd does not "share that same dubious criminal status". We possibly disagree as to whether the resort can set aside the deed and come after JohnD.

All the above facts now more correctly summarized than in your inaccurate "recap" version of events and prior statements, let's cut right to the chase of the real issue:

Do you acknowledge that Johnd, despite having PAID "warrenf" $300, is NOT relieved of personal responsibility for his (JohnD's) unpaid fees when the "new" deed (with warrenf's bogus, shell "trust" as the grantee) is subsequently found to be invalid and void, albeit "officially recorded"? That's a simple, very straightforward question.... Last edit by ken1193 on Nov 14, 2008 09:29 AM.

My response to your last paragraph.

I acknowledge that any unpaid MFs that accrued prior to the transaction are still an obligation of JohnD. I do not agree that JohnD may be liable for future fees based on the facts disclosed by JohnD. Your position would place any timeshare seller in the position of guaranteeing that his buyer has noble motives and also guraranteeing that he, the grantor, would pay all future MFs if somewhere down the line the resort discovers that the buyer whose name they have now placed on their ownership rolls was not so noble after all. Such a requirement would freeze the resell of timeshares other than those done by legitimate closing firms.

Carvana:

My sincere thanks for the intelligent discourse, which I always value, welcome and respect. With your concessions and clarifications as stated above, I have to believe that we don't actually disagree on much of real substance in this matter. Regarding the $300 paid by JohnD to "warrenf", warrens' own (deleted) statements in RedWeek postings (as well as his eBay ads, which also revealed warrens' actual geographic location) made very clear that he (warrenf) routinely charged each participant $300 in this scheme. JohnD, as you note, only vaguely alluded to having made that required payment.

Retrieval and examination of the details and underlying facts (and / or "warrenf's" assorted bold previous statements and pronouncements regarding details of his contrived shell "trust") is unfortunately now made impossible by "warrenf" having been long ago "booted" from this site. Most (maybe all) of "warrenf's" posts were appropriately deleted by site moderators upon his departure, presumably to protect innocent others from entering into (and paying $300 into) "warrenfs'" contrived shell trust scheme. Perhaps someone in authority, armed with a subpoena, will someday seek to "resurrect" warrenf's deleted overt solicitations and incriminating statements for investigation and (at least potentially) prosecution purposes. Who knows...? I believe that we share a common goal in voluntarily providing our respective input based upon a genuine interest in consumer advocacy. With all of the deceit, misrepresentation, half-truths and outright lies so widespread throughout the timeshare industry, I believe that it's important to keep the spotlight focused sharply upon those "performers" of ill intent who publicly choose to step to "front and center stage". There are certainly lots of them --- and the supply seems truly endless.

As a timeshare owner, I know the consequences of scams like "warrens"; the burden of unpaid fees is ultimately borne by the rest of the owners at a facility who actually DO pay their bills. Those good people, honoring their commitments and obligations, then have to "make up the difference" in financial shortfalls created by delinquent owners. At smaller resorts, where all unit / weeks are sold out and the developer is consequently long gone, the "deep pockets" are also long gone too. Short of actual foreclosure (which incurs additional expense) even a well run HOA can do only so much with collecting back fees from delinquent owners. I also believe in shining the "bright, focused spotlight of truth" on such scams, in hopes of leaving fewer dark holes and hiding places available to those who would knowingly take advantage of innocent others. It has been said that nothing illuminates better than bright sunlight...