Marriott Going to Point Syst

Somehow my last message got sent before it was complete so I will try again. Subject is inventory.

My understanding after talking with several Marriott people is as follows. 1. There are three inventory bins. 2. The bins are - Property owner weeks. Those who own deeded property at specific locations. - Points weeks. From property owners who trade for points. From new owners who purchased points. - Whole weeks which are traded thru II. These come from property owners who turn their week over to II or property owener who have joined the Destinations Program and wish to trade their week for a full week at another location.(Without using points.)

What has been confusing is that those who wish to trade a whole Marriott week for another whole week at another Marriott can do this thru their the Marriott Destinations Program person BUT that person works with II to complete the transaction. If someone does not belong to the new Destinations Program, then that person has to deal with II directly BUT the inventory they have access to (for trading whole weeks) is identical.

I have recommend to Marriott that they put this explanation in writing on their website so eveyone has access to how this works.

It is not my position that I am obsolutely correct. It is my positon that I have talked with several Marriott people who gave me the same answer. So, I hope this is helpful.

j227 wrote:

Somehow my last message got sent before it was complete so I will try again. Subject is inventory.

My understanding after talking with several Marriott people is as follows. 1. There are three inventory bins. 2. The bins are - Property owner weeks. Those who own deeded property at specific locations. - Points weeks. From property owners who trade for points. From new owners who purchased points. - Whole weeks which are traded thru II. These come from property owners who turn their week over to II or property owener who have joined the Destinations Program and wish to trade their week for a full week at another location.(Without using points.)

What has been confusing is that those who wish to trade a whole Marriott week for another whole week at another Marriott can do this thru their the Marriott Destinations Program person BUT that person works with II to complete the transaction. If someone does not belong to the new Destinations Program, then that person has to deal with II directly BUT the inventory they have access to (for trading whole weeks) is identical.

I have recommend to Marriott that they put this explanation in writing on their website so eveyone has access to how this works.

It is not my position that I am obsolutely correct. It is my positon that I have talked with several Marriott people who gave me the same answer. So, I hope this is helpful.

This is extremely helpful. I was under the false impression that “trading” inventory was separated. I thought that Marriott was taking all the unsold unit weeks from II’s inventory and was using them in the points/Destinations program. I thought this was one possible advantage of joining the points/Destinations program. That is, under a “standard” ownership type in the points/Destinations program you could access Marriott’s unsold unit weeks 12 months out. Until reading your message I believed that these unsold Marriott unit weeks would not be available to II members and while you can make a similar request for the same unit through II you would have to wait until a Marriott week owner made a matching deposit with II. If the statement, “the inventory they have access to (for trading whole weeks) is identical” is accurate, both II and the points/Destinations program draw from the same inventory. Therefore, for trades of one week, there is essentially no difference in trading opportunities. This is extremely important point to consider in evaluating the points/Destinations program.

Marriott just sent out an email to owners that prices are increasing on Sept 9th. Their email did not state what prices they were talking about -- which is very annoying.

Here is the anwser: Currently the new DESTINATION POINTS are priced at 9.20 per point. On Sept 9th the price increases to 9.60 per point. And on Oct 6th the prices goes to 10.00 per point.

Rather then purchase more points, it makes tons more sense to purchase actually deeded weeks from a current owner. You will end up with a week you can trade with II and save at least 50% of the price. In addition, for most locations the maintenance fee will be considerabley less for the deeded week then paying the 40 cents per point under the POINTS program.

If you are a deeded owner you should feel be very happy. If you are not, then I recommend you be one by purchasing a deeded week from an owner who wishes to sell.

Alot has been made of Marriott's new Destinations plan. I have read with great interest the many comments on this forum and other sites for several weeks. I have also reviewed the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations public offering statement - and have discovered numerous issues that are disconcerting. Clearly several of these points are not being fairly (expressly) disclosed by Marriott to existing owners looking to "upgrade" or new buyers.

While the plan may appear to offer more flexibility on the surface - if one takes a closer look at the "Destinations differences (shortcomings)" compared to the "legacy" product - it is difficult to see how the Destinations program is a better product for an existing owner....or a new buyer.

1.No deeded interest or ownership in a specific resort property.

2. No proprietary usage in any particular season.

3. Loss of voting rights in property association. (Legacy owners agree to not exercise any vote in the Owners Resort Association that is MVCEC's reasonable discretion, detrimental to the Destinations program including voting to limit or terminate the owner's resort participation in the Destinations program.)

4. Inability to "trade up" lesser demand time weeks.

5. New point buyers (and existing owners using points) will have restricted use to all properties developed over the last 25 years as these properties are "legacy" properties. The vast majority of timeshare weeks associated with these properties/ owners will not contribute or participate in the Destinations program. This is especially true for high demand season weeks in high demand resort locations. There simply is no real incentive for owners with high demand weeks (i.e., Platinum and Gold season weeks) in high owner usage resorts to deposit/ assign their weeks for points into the Destinations program).

If there are no/ minimal legacy weeks at legacy resorts assigned for points then there are no/ minimal point usage possibilities at these legacy resorts.

6. Inability for current or new owners to sell their Marriott Destination points based on ambiguous and restrictive resale policy. Do you really want to own a product you can't sell? Do you really want to buy from any company that intentionally designs its product so that there is not a secondary market for it?

7. Current owners must purchase additional points to address the premium difference charged by Marriott to exchange like demand season for like demand season at same or similar resorts using the Destinations exchange program.

8. More expensive maintenance fees.

9. Marriott can arbitrarily adjust point values without adjusting owner's point values.

10. Marriott creates a discriminatory "class system" for owners based on the number of annual points an owner receives in their Destinations account. The more money you spend with Marriott, the better the chances you will receive your exchange request.

11. Legacy owners participating in the Destinations program will lose the money paid to join the plan should the owner association for a specific "legacy" resort elect to hire a different management company i.e., Hilton. Hyatt, etc. to manage the resort on its behalf.

12. For future buyers, Interval International fees are no longer optional. The cost of this feature is "layered" into the Destinations annual member fee.

While the new Destinations program may "on the surface" offer a certain level of increased flexibility, the program has several significant shortcomings and disadvantages that unfortunately give the" short end of the stick" to current owners and future buyers.

As for new owners I truly believe they are purchasing an inferior product compared to the "legacy" product. Certainly these unsuspecting buyers will be quite surprised (frustrated) when attempting to use their points at the high demand legacy properties.

In essence, because of these issues, it is truly disingenuous for Marriott to say the Destinations program will offer a better timeshare experience. The program may offer a more profitable way for Marriott to develop its timeshare plan going forward - but as far as providing families with a better vacation experience - I am very skeptical.

Each disadvantage noted above is an advantage for the legacy product.

That said, it is hard to imagine that there will not be a fairly robust resale market for legacy weeks "after the dust settles" and Marriott point owners experience some of the challenges brought about by Marriott splitting its timeshare program into two different segments. With 400,000 legacy owners and in excess of 500,000 legacy weeks in the marketplace, Marriott's ability to "shut down" the resale market is highly unlikely to occur. Certainly any comments that Marriott has shutdown the resale market is very premature.

What a well written article. Minor point. I don't think deeded owners who join the Destinations Program give up their right to vote at their home locaton. Marriott had them agree in their Destinations contract to support the POINTS program if it came up for a vote, but I don't see how that rule is enforcable. They could kick you out of the POINTS program, but if you vote against it it means you don't want it anyway. Another silly provision.

All Marriott had to do was continue the deeded ownership program and then add the POINTS program as an additional option for those who wished to join. Instead they turn the whole program upside down and loose the confidence of many current owners. I just don't see how this was a good decison.

Reply added below.

brucek88 wrote:

robertw312 wrote:

Below is a FAQ on the Marriott website

I originally purchased my Marriott Vacation Club week(s) as an external sale through the secondary market. Would the benefits of enrolling be different for me? If your external purchase closed prior to June 20, 2010, it is eligible to be enrolled with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program. The enrollment fee for one externally purchased week will initially be $1,495, and enrolling multiple externally purchased weeks will initially total $1,995. This offer is expected to be available only through December 31, 2010. Once you enroll your week(s), you will gain the annual option to elect Vacation Club Points, and you may also add the option of trading your week(s) for Marriott Rewards points if the week(s) you purchased externally are eligible for Marriott Rewards trade. You also will gain the benefit and convenience of the annual single-use fee (Club Dues).

Does his mean that they are not going to accept external purchases after June 20, 2010? If this is so, then what are our resale options?

From my tour visit, the points program essentially shuts down the resale industry. You can still buy resale weeks from other "legacy" owners, but they will not be open to the new points program.

Also, if you buy new points on tour, like the one I just took, you can't resell those points anymore. If you want to sell, I was told Marriott would buy the points on a 60/40 split. Marriott just closed the door on the resale industry from what I can tell.

Regarding the 60/40 split resale split. Did you get that in writing from your rep? That was the old Marriott resale structure once your timeshare was sold. When Marriott did its buyback programs three or four years ago (at the top of the market) - sellers got $.40 (forty cents) on the dollar.

With the market downturn in the last two to three years - Marriott hasn't bought anything back - and has executed almost no, if any, FROR purchases. So I am not too sure how reliable of a resource Marriott will be if a points owner has a lifestyle change, financial hardship, or just decides the program is not for them - and wants/ needs to sell.

With respect to Marriott resale - little effort has been given to assisting Marriott owners that needed to sell. Had your contacted Marriott to list over the last couple of years - they would not even accept a listing because they had so many weeks listed.

With respect to the Destinations program - Marriott notes in the public offering statement that an Owner may sell his/ her points. It is however clear that Marriott intends to make it quite difficult for owners to sell their club points possibly requiring initiation fees for the new buyer - and limiting/ eliminating use of certain features ie Marriott rewards even if the initiation fee is paid. Other than the initiation fee - this is consistent with how the Marriott addressed external sales of legacy weeks in the past.

With this said - I would note a couple of things.

1. I would not put too much weight in the 60/40 comment .... unless you had it in writing by the rep and it was endorsed by the sales/ resort manager.

2. How has the resale market been "shut down?" Destinations point owners will be able to bring their points into the secondary market albeit with transfer fees. (Who do you think will pay this? This will become priced into the secondary market pricing and will be absorbed by the Seller unfortunately.)

Additionally, there are 400,000 legacy owners (500,000+ weeks) whereby an argument can be made that these owners own a better product than the points product. Resale buyers will be pretty savvy to discovering the merits of each program. Certainly there will be those individuals that prefer the "Legacy" program to the "Destinations" program.

Throughout history companies have tried to manipulate the market. The market is the market and it is very difficult to control even by companies with the size and scale of Marriott. Not to mention the last time I looked - it was illegal for companies to blatantly manipulate markets in an effort to stifle or curtail competition.

Thanks to everyone for your excellent information and insights as we try to sort through this complicated new Marriott points program.

I can add to the discussion from my own recent first hand experience. I am a longstanding 5 week owner, all bought through Marriott, including 3 Hawaii properties. Like most everyone else, I have been quite sceptical of this new program because I was exceedingly pleased with the prior program and because I have heard and read about so many the horrors of the points programs of other timeshare companies. However, since I have multiple high value properties, I decided to enroll even though I plan to rarely trade for these new points.

In my analysis of the new program, I have determined that the best way to receive great value from the points is to focus on "weekday" stays (which require less points), and to travel in non peak periods. For example, the 800 points they give you for signing up can get you 8 or more "weekday" nights of 2BR units (at 75 or 100 points a night) in places like Hilton Head and Orlando during certain times of the year. Plus you can use these "weekday" nights to sort of fill in nights that you may need to extend a longer vacation. (My wife and I are doing a 7 day cruise in January, and we are "filling in" two extra nights after the cruise and have reserved a Marriott timeshare using points.)

However, there are major, major pitfalls in the new program that need to be managed. First of all, even though they say that points you trade for are good for two years, this is not exactly accurate. I traded one of my 2011 weeks for points yesterday and after doing so (to my surprise) the Marriott representative said I have until June 30, 2011 to "bank my points". I thought I had just done that but she explained that unless I make a 2011 reservation using the points by June 30, these point will only be usable in 2011, or they will be lost. However, if I "bank" them by June 30, then the points will no longer be usable for 2011, but will have to be used for 2012. (So, it does not work like II where you give up a week and then have two or three years to make a trade; or it does not work like the Marriott Hotel Points program where you give up your timeshare for points and then can use whenever.) I asked the rep if this, in fact, was all true so she then verified it all with her supervisor.

Also, Marriott is totally disorganized in the management of the new program. The Marriott timeshare website does not show your points anywhere, so you have no record that they did the transaction correctly when you trade your unit for points. I asked for an email confirmation and I still have not received anything. (In my case this is most disconcerting since for some reason Marriott has my 5 ownership units in two separate accounts and the rep, at first, could only see half of my units on her computer). Also, the Marriott website does not currently let you do any of this online. (They say they are working on this.) So, you have to call in and do it by phone, and the wait times can be rather lengthy.

Of course, the next big problem with the program is that the II inventory has definitely, definitely, definitely already been affected, so trades traditional type are already much harder to do.

My net conclusion, is that I do not like the program, but I will try to make it work as best I can. But, I will never again recommend a Marriott timeshare purchase to anyone, unless it is from a deeded week owner on the resale market, at a resort the person wants to use every year.

Excellent information. Thanks for taking the time to share your insights.

thomasn15 wrote:

Thanks to everyone for your excellent information and insights as we try to sort through this complicated new Marriott points program.

I can add to the discussion from my own recent first hand experience. I am a longstanding 5 week owner, all bought through Marriott, including 3 Hawaii properties. Like most everyone else, I have been quite sceptical of this new program because I was exceedingly pleased with the prior program and because I have heard and read about so many the horrors of the points programs of other timeshare companies. However, since I have multiple high value properties, I decided to enroll even though I plan to rarely trade for these new points.

In my analysis of the new program, I have determined that the best way to receive great value from the points is to focus on "weekday" stays (which require less points), and to travel in non peak periods. For example, the 800 points they give you for signing up can get you 8 or more "weekday" nights of 2BR units (at 75 or 100 points a night) in places like Hilton Head and Orlando during certain times of the year. Plus you can use these "weekday" nights to sort of fill in nights that you may need to extend a longer vacation. (My wife and I are doing a 7 day cruise in January, and we are "filling in" two extra nights after the cruise and have reserved a Marriott timeshare using points.)

However, there are major, major pitfalls in the new program that need to be managed. First of all, even though they say that points you trade for are good for two years, this is not exactly accurate. I traded one of my 2011 weeks for points yesterday and after doing so (to my surprise) the Marriott representative said I have until June 30, 2011 to "bank my points". I thought I had just done that but she explained that unless I make a 2011 reservation using the points by June 30, these point will only be usable in 2011, or they will be lost. However, if I "bank" them by June 30, then the points will no longer be usable for 2011, but will have to be used for 2012. (So, it does not work like II where you give up a week and then have two or three years to make a trade; or it does not work like the Marriott Hotel Points program where you give up your timeshare for points and then can use whenever.) I asked the rep if this, in fact, was all true so she then verified it all with her supervisor.

Also, Marriott is totally disorganized in the management of the new program. The Marriott timeshare website does not show your points anywhere, so you have no record that they did the transaction correctly when you trade your unit for points. I asked for an email confirmation and I still have not received anything. (In my case this is most disconcerting since for some reason Marriott has my 5 ownership units in two separate accounts and the rep, at first, could only see half of my units on her computer). Also, the Marriott website does not currently let you do any of this online. (They say they are working on this.) So, you have to call in and do it by phone, and the wait times can be rather lengthy.

Of course, the next big problem with the program is that the II inventory has definitely, definitely, definitely already been affected, so trades traditional type are already much harder to do.

My net conclusion, is that I do not like the program, but I will try to make it work as best I can. But, I will never again recommend a Marriott timeshare purchase to anyone, unless it is from a deeded week owner on the resale market, at a resort the person wants to use every year.

It is a very confusing new way of doing business. I wish I had access to the 4,000 owners at Sabal Palms or the many owners at Grande Vista because I am trying to sell my 2 bedroom time shares. You would think that Marriott would have a webinar & explain all these concerns. I also would like Marriott to have the Annual Meetings on a webinar. Very few owners attend these meetings.

At this time, the Marriott points system is only an advantage to resort owners who are considered "traders". It appears from the posts that traders have done very well in finding bargains, saving monies and extending their stays. This will probably no longer be true. I am not a resort trader, so my opinion is based on the Marriott proposal and the posts on this site. I own multiple Marriott weeks on HHI. I purchased with Marriott because I loved my stays at HHI........never trading any weeks. I consider HHI to be a destination resort and I believe properties in Hawaii are in a similar category. All others are "trading sites". I will stay a "deeded owner" and the weeks will increase in value, because of there is DEMAND. All "deeded owners" of properties on HHI and Hawaii should NOT opt into the points sytem......let the traders do it.

Greetings to all. Happy to see that the blog has return to a more civil and informative discourse between owners and those interested in being owners. I extend my thanks to all those that have continued to do the hard work of contacting Marriott to get the facts about how our ownership is changing/improving with the new points system.

I did notice in my snail mail a Marriott VCI proxy ballot for Sabal Palms. Like most things this is the time to get off the sidelines and become active voting owners. I don't know the current association president or the nominated board members (I should and will soon). I'll be putting my votes behind those who will represent how I'd like to see my property managed.

On the MVCI level, Marriott does own all their un-sold units, but I suspect existing owners still exceed those numbers by 10 or 20 fold. That fact makes our voices a major factor in how MVCI and II provide services to us as paying customers. Remember we pay all the bills for Marriott and II. In the spirit of election season, I suggest we move this discussion towards formulating a list of key concerns we have discovered with the new point system and more importantly compile several workable solutions to each concern. This may take a month or more to refine, but perhaps by Oct/Nov we can communicate "our" wishes to Marriott and II. Those that participate in other Marriott blogs can canavas those groups as well. I suggest all property owners submit the consolidated "recommendations" to the point system via your respective owner associations to allow them to carry the weight and voice of the entire association of owners.

Just my thoughts for today. Once again thanks to all who make positive contributions to this bolg.

Erman

Deeded owners rejoice. I own at Grande Ocean. Last week I had no trouble getting the deeded weeks I requested. However, when I tried to use points for one of the same weeks -- that I scheduled as a deeded owner -- none were avaiable. Which was no suprise. Until a deeded owner converts his unit to points there is no inventory at a sold out resort. If you wish to go to Grande Ocean (or any other sold out resort) I recommend you avoid purchasing points and instead purchase a deeded property from an existing owner at a fraction of the price. As propective owners learn about their options, the secondary market for deeded property will increase in demand. It is too early in the process for this to occur on a widespread basis -- but over time this will just become common knowledge.

Hey guess what! There was availablity at a property I wanted to go to - a vacation club in the destination system.

So, quick, quick I called the Marriott rep assigned to me to reserve the room with our great destination club points! Wow guess what. Yes there is availability but I can't use them to reserve the time. What a shocker! I am told that because an owner has turned it in to rent it, I can't use points.

I can pay $450 plus a night to rent it. Hummm how much do those points cost me to own and pay fees on a night? Where does that money go if not to use a property that is in this great vast vacation club system?

I feel like I have been violated and need a shower.

So much for the "no black out - if it is available you can get it" sales pitch!

I made a reservation with Sheraton for the same time in the same area with points and no problem!

I am going to start looking into dumping Marriott Destination Club. The whole system is not functional.

One last caveat, Mario the supervisor at the Owners Services number for Marriott just finished screaming at me and told me to shut up. Guess who will be getting a letter from me?

Not a good experience today with Marriott.

Great forum and a lot of good work here. Let's keep it going and continue detailing the facts. Agree with ermanc to wait Oct/Nov and write a common protest.

I own 3 deeded weeks (3br Grande Vista and 2br Mountainside) and join the Destination Program for the same reasons than thomasn15. Although I do not expect to use them regularly, they could be complementing a 7 days stay.

HOWEVER, I am really having trouble to find anything available with the points. The other day, I made a request to the agent and, before something was booked, she used one of my week to turn it to points. I had to go to the supervisor to have my week back!

The main issue with the Destination Points system is that you cannot do a "Request First", like in II. To be on a "waiting list" when something is not immediatly available, you have to deposit your week for points first, have them in your account and then be put on the waiting list. FRANKLY, no one having outstanding deeded weeks (platimum, 3br, rare resorts, etc.) is going to turn them into points BEFORE you can secure your stay.

Not sure if this is going to work for Marriott, but this is not a great start at all. I really expect the "resale" market to pick up when the "dust has settled". Hopefully, Marriott will not have destroyed its business in the meantime (as well as the value of our investments).

While not directly related to your concern regarding converting your week to points prior to securing a reservation, I confirmed, through discussions with Marriott, that if you need to “borrow” points from a future use year to secure a reservation that the points are not transferred into the use year of your desired reservation, which is an irrevocable transfer, while you are on a “wait list”. Also, I was able to confirm with II that for exchanges of 7 days the Destinations points program and II can draw from the same inventory for a Marriott week exchange. However, I’m not sure if Marriott lets II draw from unsold unit weeks. I believe Marriott uses them to fulfill Destination points requests.

Stongly support the suggestion to make a list of improvements we wish to see in the Destination Program. Here are two -- both previously mentioned -- but let's number them so we can better keep track. If you wish to add one just use the next number.

1. REQUEST FIRST. Allow for a "Request First" basis so you can keep your week if it you don't get the point time being requested. (If it works for II it should work for Mariott.) 2. POINTS GOOD FOR AT LEAST TWO YEARS. Allow points to be good for at least two years without having to go thru their banking process by June 30th. If you are waiting for something the last 6 months of the year, you loose the points if you don't get it. This is silly. (If II can do it for three years, seems Marriott should be able to do it for two.)

I also appreciate the great improvment in the quality of the comments.

libby31 wrote:

So much for the "no black out - if it is available you can get it" sales pitch!

I made a reservation with Sheraton for the same time in the same area with points and no problem!

I am going to start looking into dumping Marriott Destination Club. The whole system is not functional.

One last caveat, Mario the supervisor at the Owners Services number for Marriott just finished screaming at me and told me to shut up. Guess who will be getting a letter from me?

Not a good experience today with Marriott.

I believe Mario's job has been made exponentially more difficult thanks to Marriott Destinations. :)

As I have noted previously, there are some fairly significant usage restrictions that will occur with point users in that most of the available high demand (platinum/ gold week) inventory will reside in the legacy pool and not be deposited for points. So those point owners looking to redeem their points for great locations at great times will be disappointed. Based on comments on this forum and others - owners appear to finding this to be just the case.

Additionally, the Marriott Destinations system is much different than the other luxury hotel branded names - Hyatt, Hilton, Sheraton, etc. - as its Points system does not provide any proprietary interest for a specific season or resort. Marriott's system is much more a "free for all" system. Additionally, the other hotel systems built their point systems "from the ground up" - not 25 years into its business plan..

I don't believe the Destinations program was designed with any consideration to logistics, statistics, and owner usage. Just the idea the "if Marriott says it is good then it must be good - and the owners will buy it."

With this said - it is easy to understand why Mario and his customer service colleagues may have many difficult days ahead dealing with frustrated point owners.

j227 wrote:

Stongly support the suggestion to make a list of improvements we wish to see in the Destination Program. Here are two -- both previously mentioned -- but let's number them so we can better keep track. If you wish to add one just use the next number.

1. REQUEST FIRST. Allow for a "Request First" basis so you can keep your week if it you don't get the point time being requested. (If it works for II it should work for Mariott.) 2. POINTS GOOD FOR AT LEAST TWO YEARS. Allow points to be good for at least two years without having to go thru their banking process by June 30th. If you are waiting for something the last 6 months of the year, you loose the points if you don't get it. This is silly. (If II can do it for three years, seems Marriott should be able to do it for two.)

I also appreciate the great improvment in the quality of the comments.

Hmmmm. Let me see.....where did I see these features. Oh yeah, they are on the legacy side. :)