Be careful about taking advice from the Timeshare Users Group (TUG)

TUG purports to be an unbiased website dedicated to helping consumers. It has long been rumored that TUG is very biased in favor of TS developers. Certainly the policies on that site indicate they are more interested in protecting the TS developers than the consumers.

I am one of several people involved in a long term investigation of DR. I been trying to network with DRI owners on TUG, asking for them to share information about their DRI experiences. The TUG moderators immediately decided I was involved in some nefarious activity and they prevented me from starting new threads to discuss DRI. Today one of the moderators announced he was certain that I am "promoting for an attorney" and he commented that "the truth always comes out". With that context in mind, here is the post that caused them to ban me:

I am not "promoting" for any particular attorney. I am a consumer rights activist (currently focused on TS), I help TS victims, I don't charge anyone a dime, and I don't receive any type of compensation from attorneys.

It would be easy enough for you to confirm that by contacting me as a victim asking for help. Surely if I am doing what you claim I'm doing, it wouldn't take long for you to obtain evidence of that. But you know that don't you?

Over the past seven months I've been contacted by many, many people asking for help. A handful of them have disappeared after exchanging several emails with me. I assume these people were "testers" and I suspect some of them were TUGGERS. Yet in all this time, not one person has appeared on any forum to warn others that am doing anything other than exactly what I say I am doing.

I work at least sixty hours a week investigating DRI and helping the individuals that contact me. I've heard from quite a few people while they are still in their rescission period. I literally drop whatever I am doing to send them rescission instructions. I've discovered that some victims need more than written instructions so I walk them through the process until they have their notice in the mail.

I am promoting something though. I want people to know that it is a myth, mainly perpetuated by TUG, that the only way out of a TS is a surrender. That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. I hate to think how many people have walked away from tens of thousands of dollars based on the advice that is routinely given here.

I hope to identify a number of attorneys that are willing to represent TS victims on a contingency basis or for a small payment with the retainer agreement. I intend to create a list of those attorneys and publish it on a website where people can comment on their experiences with each attorney.

I know TUG has heard from people that obtained satisfactory results (cancellation WITH a refund) by using an attorney. TUG should be happy to hear about such attorneys and anxious to publish their names. But you haven't done that. You won't even let your users recommend an attorney by name. All this time, you could have been making it easy for people to find the attorneys they need. Instead you act like you are afraid for that information to come out.

You are also determined to prevent me and presumably anyone else, from reaching out to your members for information or help with our DRI investigation.

Taken together these facts indicate TUG is interested in protecting TS developers from lawsuits. That is a very unusual stance for people that profess to be interested in helping consumers. I wonder what "truth" is behind that agenda.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________ I am sharing this incident here, because it is evidence of some serious truth! TUG is 20 years old and now boasts 70,000 members. When a dissatisfied owner that has already missed the rescission period comes to TUG and asks for advice, they get two suggestions. 1. Accept that you can't get out and learn to enjoy the vacations even though they are costing you much more than they are worth. 2. Surrender your purchase and take a total loss on the tens of thousands of dollars you paid for it.

TUG tells people there is no other option. Clearly, as evidenced by the fact that I've been banned, the site does not allow people to post about other solutions! This is why you don't hear from more of the people that DO get their money back. People that deviate from TUG's agenda are likely to be censored. sbharbison@gmail.com

A few of your points aren't true. If anyone comes on any of the forums saying they just bought from the developer, whether they say they are happy as a clam with their new purchase, if they say they are happy but have some questions/doubts or if they say they are now feeling like they were tricked, you will have a dozen TUG members asking when the TS is purchased and post after post will tell that person to rescind while they still can. People who just bought and are in the rescind period and are really happy with the purchase really have to fight off the posters telling them to rescind. If they are unhappy in the least and are a few days past the legal rescission period the advice on TUG is still to give it a try (even though it may be not be successful).

It is when someone posts that they bought months or years ago that the 2 options are mentioned. Another option is also almost always mentioned. To contact the developer and see if there is any way to offer a deed in lieu of foreclosure or to try to negotiate to see if they will take back the deed.

Unfortunately the timeshare is ripe with more than one timeshare attorney, advocate, or other groups promising to donate the timeshare, sell the timeshare, or take back the timeshare. Many are quick to say they don't charge anything upfront but that turns out to be another lie.

If you have posted and have made an impact and helped people get out of the legally binding contract that they signed outside of the legal rescission period that is great. I am glad people were able to find you through TUG or other ways that you reach out to people and they were able to contact you in private.

There is no developer bias on TUG. More than 90% of the active members will say never under any circumstances buy anything from the developer, any developer. The 10% who don't will be very quick to say that there is only a very few specific circumstances where a developer purchase would make any sense.

And let's get out of the timeshare world and go with in general if someone comes to you and says they spent thousands buying something that they really didn't research or understand and signed a legally binding contract to make the purchase and had a period to get out of it but did not take advantage of it but now realize it was a big mistake but they have no proof of fraud but want out- what would your advice be? Maybe if you actually had that list and that website where the reviews could be verified but you don't and my personal feeling why this would be so difficult is that even if the lawyer wins, it most likely isn't going to be in court, it will be some kind of settlement and the terms of the settlement will almost always be that the winner (former owner) can't disclose any of the terms of the settlement or the settlement could be reversed. This makes it almost impossible to verify anything and I imagine there are more dishonest advocates and such than honest ones.

I think TUG just doesn't want to be seen as endorsing something without proof. If you could show multiple legal, verified settlements, TUG might reverse its stance. Until then you will have to do it through messaging and not through the open forum.

Tracey is correct, as a active member in both TUG and Red week. I have seen the discussions, replied to the discussions, and the only time I have seen Tuggers offer up to "give back" is as a last resort to people who have gone way beyond any possibility of rescinding.

Quite a few of the Tuggers are multiple owners (as am I), so why wouldn't someone who is new, or doesn't know where to turn, accept the advice of others who have been there and done that. I believe I had seen your post concerning contacting other members on TUG, before it was deleted, Certainly you must know that as on TUG as well as Red week that the members autonomy is preserved from scammers, nefarious(your words), individuals who have only there own interest at heart.

Ask yourself, If I was to contact by some one out of the blue, that I knew nothing about, concerning a TS in hopes of getting any monies back from what turned out be a bad investment. With out any past experiences to back up their validity, how desperate would you be. Granted everyone starts some where, but by you wanting to start a thread on a site, wanting to contact, or have people contact you concerning giving up TS's in place of getting their money back, would seem kinda fishy to me also. Maybe there would be a better way to introduce your efforts than wanting a published list of owners, be TUG or Red week.

You failed to abide by TUG simple rule, no advertising in the discussion forums. TUG has every right to enforce its rules regardless of how 'just' you think your cause is to help people.

"A few of your points aren't true. If anyone comes on any of the forums saying they just bought from the developer, whether they say they are happy as a clam with their new purchase,..."

You will notice I specifically referenced the responses that are usually given to a DISSATISFIED buyer. I was talking about unhappy buyers that are past the rescission period. I see from your post that I failed to make that clear. Thank you for pointing it out. I have edited my original post for clarity.

" Another option is also almost always mentioned. To contact the developer and see if there is any way to offer a deed in lieu of foreclosure or to try to negotiate to see if they will take back the deed. "

You are describing a SURRENDER. Whether you do it yourself by contacting the developer directly or you pay someone else to do it, it is still a surrender.

"Unfortunately the timeshare is ripe with more than one timeshare attorney, advocate, or other groups promising to donate the timeshare, sell the timeshare, or take back the timeshare. Many are quick to say they don't charge anything upfront but that turns out to be another lie."

There are bad people in every profession and every walk of life. I'm not going to neglect my health because there are bad doctors out there. I will not refuse to get in a car because there are bad drivers,, avoid all schools and churches because of the stories we've heard about people in those professions. The fact is most people that settle with a TS probably don't bother going on line to recommend their attorney. But if someone is willing to make a recommendation, I do think the average forum reader would at least like to hear what they have to say. Unconfirmed recommendations are better than nothing because they at least direct people to attorneys that are interested in TS cases. Over 20 years TUG could easily have put those recommendations in a separate forum. People could have posted their own experience with each attorney. To avoid posts from shills maybe a trusted forum regular would volunteer to check out the recommendations by working with the poster. I've run quite a few forums and I have never had any problem getting volunteers to take on new projects.

"There is no developer bias on TUG. More than 90% of the active members will say never under any circumstances buy anything from the developer, any developer. The 10% who don't will be very quick to say that there is only a very few specific circumstances where a developer purchase would make any sense."

Of course they discourage buying from developers. TUG is in the RESALE business, lol. TUG very clearly has a desire to discourage people from even consulting with attorneys. Maybe it is not about helping developers. Maybe it is about the fact that people who get an attorney, will have no need to try and sell their TS. I don't know. All I know is there are an awful lot of people that ask for attorney recommendations. TUG will not allow anyone to answer them. That policy stinks like a week old dead fish. It does not help consumer's in any way so it is obviously something done to benefit the TUG owners.

As I've said before, TUG has no obligation to provide any particular services to the public. Except that they do claim to be there to HELP CONSUMERS. You don't help consumers by telling that that no matter what the seller did to them, they have no legal recourse. That is preposterous. You don't help consumers by encouraging them to solve their problem by walking away from tens of thousands of dollars.

"... if someone comes to you and says they spent thousands buying something that they really didn't research or understand and signed a legally binding contract to make the purchase and had a period to get out of it but did not take advantage of it but now realize it was a big mistake but they have no proof of fraud but want out- what would your advice be?"

One of the worst things I've seen on TUG is the "blame the victim" responses. Perhaps those who regularly feel the need to do that are reps of the TS developers. Or maybe the are just ignorant about the facts. The average citizen is not equipped to defend against a psychological assault. The sales tactics are based on scientific knowledge of how to break down and manipulate humans. The reason the "presentation" takes so long is that it takes TIME to manipulate someone. The majority of victims I've met tell me they just didn't want to offend the salesperson by getting tough with him. These people are too nice for their own good but I can't see faulting them for that.

That legally binding contract that responsible buyers should closely examine? In order to know exactly what the purchase involves, you need to read about 100 pages of documents related to the sale. The contract itself is far from user friendly. I would not expect a non-lawyer to pick up on the nuances that reveal the truth about the purchase. Even an experienced contract lawyer needs over four hours to carefully review the documents and THAT is assuming he already has a basic understanding of timeshares. The salesperson gains the buyer's trust and purports to explain all of the material facts the buyer needs to know. The buyer avoids the overwhelming task of reading the contract because he is certain his trusted salesperson accurately summarized it for him. This is a perfect example of psychological manipulation.

"Maybe if you actually had that list and that website where the reviews could be verified but you don't..."

Maybe if I had the site up...what would happen? I'm not sure where you are going with that statement. It is going to take me quite a bit of time to find and vet suitable attorneys. I'll get it done eventually. The thing is, over 20 years there have to have been people that GAVE TUG the information. They could easily have created a list of attorneys that were recommended by their users. They allow the users to give out every other kind of advice so why can't they share the happy news that they found a good attorney?

" This makes it almost impossible to verify anything"

It is true that all settlements include a non-disclosure clause. The plaintiff or his lawyer are free to say that they reached a satisfactory agreement with the TS, they are only prohibited from sharing the details. I don't think it would be that hard to verify the basic facts about each of the posters that were trying to leave a reference. And anyone on the list that turns out to be less than satisfactory would be exposed pretty quickly.

"I think TUG just doesn't want to be seen as endorsing something without proof."

No one asked TUG to endorse anything. They simply include a disclaimer advising people that they cannot endorse any of the attorneys. Realistically, over time some attorneys would earn the trust of the TUG owners and certainly that could have occurred long ago on that site.

" If you could show multiple legal, verified settlements, TUG might reverse its stance."

What stance is that? They have a rule against soliciting so I wouldn't expect them to let an attorney actually solicit there. Then again, they only enforce the no solicitation policy when it serves their agenda. Numerous people regularly includes links to other websites in their TUG posts.

Further, I was not "soliciting" according to their own definition of that activity. I was asking ON TOPIC questions which the visitors there, all of whom I assume are adults, were free to answer or ignore. Some of my questions have probably never been raised there (unless the posters that raised those questions met the same fate as I, lol) and would have made for interesting, FRESH discussion. How was that hurting anyone or interfering in TUG's business in any way? The fact is, TUG did not like the questions I was raising. They don't like the message I am trying to spread because it is contrary to the myth they have worked very hard to perpetuate. There ARE good attorneys that can help people get out of a timeshare contract, WITH A REFUND, and will do so for a lot less than the average surrender company charges the victim to get raped a second time. NO timeshare owner should be settling for a surrender.

Although I disagree with most of your points, I doI appreciate your thoughtful feedback.

@davids: What is it that you think I was advertising?

Of course TUG has the right to enforce it's rules. I am not saying otherwise.

I am merely trying to warn people that TUG is not what it claims to be. A site that claims to be about consumer protection does not ignore the fact that consumers have legal recourse and it does not censor discussions about that recourse. In fact, any consumer advocate generally BEGINS by telling the victims about their legal remedies and tries to help them find professional help.

In contrast, TUG advises people to suck it up and live with the fact that they have been conned or to voluntarily walk away from tens of thousands of dollars. It's funny because that is exactly the kind of help I would expect a developer to offer. Either of those options, are a total win for the developer and a total loss for the consumer. TUGS introduction should be amended to reflect that it really has no interest in helping consumers.

The problem is that there is no way to verify that you are a consumer advocate and not a shill steering people to a scamming attorney. There are many ambulance chasing attorneys out there trolling the forums for victims. Better to err on the side of caution and avoid falling into a trap.

NEVER pay anyone money upfront that claims they can get you out of your contract especially a low life attorney. I don't think someone claiming a money back guarantee is a safe idea. There are plenty of attorneys where you live. NEVER give money to an attorney you heard about on the internet. If you feel you need the assistance of an attorney use one where you live and can actually walk into their office and talk to a live person.

It would seem that you are fervent with the wrong entity. In that the comments made concerning give backs came from people who use the site, not TUG. TUG it would seem provides a service(the site...with rules), the individuals using the site are to abide by the rules as is Red weeks rules After going back and reviewing you original post, along with the 3 plus pages of comments leading up to your expulsion. I can see your contempt, as well as the people who commented.

It should be noted that TUG(in my opinion) is not "IN THE RESALE BUSINESS"(your words), but through the web site service offers the sale or rent BY OWNERS. As does Red week. I have caught what seems to be in your words, developers, but most likely relator's surfing both TUG and Red week.

I applaud your efforts in trying to establish a site where "verified" (your words) lawyers could be contacted. If I remember correctly most if not all major cities a site where the all the lawyers of the bar along with there expertise can be found. I also applaud your fervor in presenting your side, but I must admit that I wonder how bad were you hurt in your TS experience, and did you use a lawyer.

Donp...........AHMEN :)

@William:

" the only time I have seen Tuggers offer up to "give back" is as a last resort to people who have gone way beyond any possibility of rescinding."

We might be reading different areas on TUG. For the most part I only read the DRI forum. The suggestion to surrender a TS is made without any discussion of whether the person has consulted an attorney and without any other suggestion as to how they might find an attorney. From what I've seen on TUG, post rescission victims are told to either sell (which is impossible) or surrender their memberships.

"Quite a few of the Tuggers are multiple owners (as am I), so why wouldn't someone who is new, or doesn't know where to turn, accept the advice of others who have been there and done that."

I'm not following you. I am afraid most new readers do follow exactly the advice the forum members offer. That is what bothers me.

" I believe I had seen your post concerning contacting other members on TUG, before it was deleted"

You may have seen me ask people to contact me via email. I suggest they remove all identifying information from their emails. In what way is their autonomy at risk? I think most TUG members are adults and capable of deciding if they want to contact people or not.

"Ask yourself, If I was to contact by some one out of the blue, that I knew nothing about, concerning a TS in hopes of getting any monies back from what turned out be a bad investment. With out any past experiences to back up their validity, how desperate would you be."

Many TS owners are desperate. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain by following up an offer of free help. Obviously anytime you contact a stranger you have to take reasonable security measures. But as long as you do that, where is the risk?

Again, "concerned" TUGGERS could easily test me and I'm sure several have done so. Obviously they have not discovered any indication that I am some kind of predator because if they had it would have been posted on the site. I can't prove a negative but over seven months the absence of any reports that confirm TUG's suspicions should tell you something.

"but by you wanting to start a thread on a site, wanting to contact, or have people contact you concerning giving up TS's in place of getting their money back, would seem kinda fishy to me also."

It's fishy that I want to start a thread on a timeshare forum, to discuss some of the details of the TS contract...in public? Do you hear yourself?

"Maybe there would be a better way to introduce your efforts than wanting a published list of owners, be TUG or Red week."

Where did you get the idea that I've ever asked for a list of published owners? Maybe you have me confused with someone else but I have certainly never asked for such information. Such a list would be helpful because it would allow me to reach out directly to the people that would be most interested in our project. But no, I've never asked for such a thing.

In fact, I encourage people to redact their identifying information from anything they send me. I really have NO INTEREST in talking to ANYONE unless they want to talk to me, lol. I have more mail than I can keep up with and I am not about to chase people down to give them free help!

Also, I went into great detail to introduce myself and my interests to TUG when I first joined the group. The response, no matter what I said, was that they thought I must be lying. I went into the whole "what do people have to lose by contacting me" thing and did not get any answer. I think the bottom line is that they don't want anyone there that is not going to subscribe to and affirm the TUG agenda. They seem to be very afraid of any discussion of people's legal options. They try to justify their censorship by making a baseless and utterly senseless (not to mention incredibly insulting to their own members) claim that they are trying to protect their members lol, but I think most people see through that.

Thank you for your comments.

I'm a little confused as to what your gripe is. The title of this thread is "Be careful about taking advice from the Timeshare Users Group (TUG)". Is your complaint that the people who offer advice there are giving out bad advice? If so, that has to be expected from practically any public forum. When you want free advice, remember, you get what you pay for. Public forums (such as RedWeek, TUG, TS4MS, etc.) will have posters from all walks of life with varying interests, agendas, and experiences, etc. So you will have to expect some advice that you probably won't agree with.

However, from the body of your original post, it seems that your gripe is that the moderators are not letting you post something that, in your opinion either does not violate TUG's terms of acceptance or should be allowed. Or do you feel that TUG's terms of acceptance are rather biased and restrictive?

Thank you for your point by point rebuttal, and I appreciate your fervor, but in your point by point rebuttal, I am still interested in your answer to my last question in the previous post of "how bad were you hurt in your TS experience, and did you use a lawyer"? With a new question, are you just mad at TUG

Haven read your post and replies both here and TUG. I would believe the latter. Thank you for your time as I know you are busy.

Susan, From your conversations with DRI owners and various lawyers have you found any lawyers who have actually had DRI contracts nullified for their clients AND recovered any money spent and if so what lawyers (group) and how much money? What is the average they have recovered per client and how many timeshare clients total have they worked with? What is the average fee collected directly from the timeshare client and what is the average fee collected (if different) for a client who was unsuccessful recovering any funds and/or being released from contract where a mortgage is still being held on the timeshare?

@ Tracey: "From your conversations with DRI owners and various lawyers have you found any lawyers who have actually had DRI contracts nullified for their clients AND recovered any money spent"

ABSOLUTELY. You have to understand where the developer is coming from.

DRI rarely allows anything to go all the way to arbitration. The only case I know of is found on the website of a west coast "surrender" attorney. He recovered the client's $40,000 purchase money PLUS his fees. This appears to be the only case he has ever tried to litigate because his business is obtaining surrenders.

Why aren't the rest of the successful cases public knowledge? Because developers rarely allow anything to go all the way to arbitration. They have huge incentives to prevent that from happening. First, they have to pay the cost of the arbitration, which will usually be thousands of dollars.

Second, if the developer doesn't settle the plaintiff has the right to conduct discovery related to his claim. For example a plaintiff who sues for lack of available rooms, gets to find out exactly how DRI is allocating the space in their resorts. The developers are free from all oversight on this and many other issues. The only way anyone is going to get access to those records is through litigation. It makes a lot more sense to pay off any potential litigant than to have their records reviewed.

Third, if the developer loses arbitration, which it probably will, it could end up paying a full refund x 3, and they will have to pay attorneys fees. Their economic risk is worse than "double or nothing". It is more like quadruple or nothing. No sensible attorney takes those odds if he can avoid it.

Finally, if the case goes all the way to arbitration and the developer loses, the plaintiff is free to publish his success story. We have no idea how many people actually obtain refunds, but I have reason to believe it is at least 15% of all sales. Can you imagine how many lawsuits would be filed against the developers if people knew they could win? The developers would suffer devastating losses and their whole business model would fail. It is imperative to their survival that the general public buys into the ridiculous notion that they should not bother trying to find an attorney to represent them. In sum, it is far cheaper and wiser to settle with a plaintiff and get him to accept a non-disclosure agreement. The result of the settlements is that there is no public indication that anyone ever gets a lawyer and obtains a refund.

This is where the surrender industry comes in. Surrender companies have a huge presence on line and they claim that they have obtained "tens of thousands" of surrenders for their clients. The average consumer sees those claims and assumes if that many people have decided a surrender was their only option, they must be right. They don't see any evidence on line of the many people that do obtain refunds. They buy in to the myth that an attorney is going to charge them an hourly rate and they will eventually lose the case anyway. All of these "facts" are the gospel on forums like TUG. The result is that the public is successfully misdirected and the majority of consumers will accept defeat without even trying to find an attorney. Many of those that do will look for an attorney that "specializes in timeshares" and most of those attorneys are actually selling surrenders.

This whole process of misdirecting the public is just another aspect of the TS con game.

"What is the average they have recovered per client and how many timeshare clients total have they worked with? What is the average fee collected directly from the timeshare client and what is the average fee collected (if different) for a client who was unsuccessful recovering any funds and/or being released from contract where a mortgage is still being held on the timeshare?"

The non-disclosure clause prevents attorneys from giving out any verifiable information about his successful cases! As far as what fees are charged, no lawyer is going to publish that information. I can tell you that attorneys have a huge incentive to work on a contingency fee, because DRI's will pay their fees if the arbitrate and win. As long as an attorney sees the potential to win the claim, he has nothing to lose by taking the case.

I've revised my own advice to never pay anyone up front. There is a legitimate reason for an attorney to require an up front fee, even if he is certain that DRI will eventually pay his fees (whereupon he would refund the retainer fee to the client). In TS cases there is a good chance an attorney will represent an out of state client. The attorney could put in many hours on a client's case only to have the client decide to drop the case later for some reason. In that case, the attorney needs to know he will be paid for the work he has done and it's hard to collect from an out of state client. If the attorney had a retainer fee he knows he will not get ripped off by a fickle client! I would expect the retainer fee to be under $3,000.

Nice talking to you!

"The title of this thread is "Be careful about taking advice from the Timeshare Users Group (TUG)". Is your complaint that the people who offer advice there are giving out bad advice? If so, that has to be expected from practically any public forum. When you want free advice, remember, you get what you pay for. Public forums (such as RedWeek, TUG, TS4MS, etc.) will have posters from all walks of life with varying interests, agendas, and experiences, etc. ... Or do you feel that TUG's terms of acceptance are rather biased and restrictive?"

Free advice does have its limitations and any reader should know that. My problem is with TUGS censorship of the free advice. They seem obsessed with keeping any discussions of legal recourse out of the forums. When I first posted there a moderator immediately accused me of being there to solicit for an attorney. I did everything I could to politely assure them I had no such agenda. They basically called me a liar and were extremely defensive given the circumstances. Such a high level of paranoia, combined with the glaring absence of any advice about how to find a good attorney, etc. leads me to wonder what the fear is all about.

"Is your complaint that the people who offer advice there are giving out bad advice? If so, that has to be expected from practically any public forum."

An uncensored public forum makes it possible for everyone to offer advice. The public benefits from hearing a wide variety of input instead of the repetition of a single narrow view. The free exchange of discussion and advice allows the advisers to learn from each other and ensures that the advice given does not become the blind repetition of long held ideas.

If the censorship of the forums goes beyond the prohibition of advertising, that fact should be revealed to the readers. Otherwise they are falsely led to believe they are seeing an open exchange. That is especially offensive on a site that claims to be interested in consumer protection.

@ William:

@ William:

" I am still interested in your answer to my last question in the previous post of "how bad were you hurt in your TS experience, and did you use a lawyer"?

I have never purchased a timeshare. If I somehow made that mistake, I certainly would find myself a lawyer. I didn't answer the question earlier because it has nothing to do with my interest in the industry. I have never had cancer but I regularly participate in fundraising for cancer research. I support numerous causes that are unlikely to ever touch me personally.

"are you just mad at TUG"

Mad at them, lol? No. Early in my research on DRI I suspected that TUG had a conflict of interest when it comes to offering advice to consumers. The widely held perception among those involved in TS issues is that TUG is in bed with the developers. As I've said before, that may or may not be the reason for the conflict.

I would have publicly shared my belief about this a long time ago, but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. The resistance I received there has been over the top. While this is not absolute proof that TUG is only interested in steering consumers in one direction, all things considered it has been enough to convince me.

"Thank you for your time as I know you are busy."

Indeed I am very busy. But I think litigation is the only way to bring about change in the TS industry. I want to spread that message and do what I can to rebut the myths about it. In my view, TUG has done more than any other entity to perpetuate those myths. I will reuse a lot of what I have written here, so it was worth my time.

Internet forums are tightly knit communities of people. Any criticism of the community is always going to be challenged by loyal members. To a reasonable extent I think the criticizer should explain the basis for her comments. It is my pleasure to do so.

Regards, Susan

Susan I can understand why people are suspicious of your motives. Count me in as one of them. I have been monitoring the forum for many years now with the intent to keep them clear of scammers. One of the scams I detest is attorneys that come into the forums posing as satisfied customers. That is their version of ambulance chasing.

You stated that you never purchased a timeshare yet you claim that you are an advocate for timeshare owners. That raises my suspicions above any bar. You provide no credentials as far as being associated with any consumer movement. Therefore I have to assume you have an ulterior motive for getting people to contact you outside the forum,

Your rants make me even more suspicious. I have gone toe to toe in the forums with B.J. Cook and his scam machine and Tonya Williams with her phony business. I exposed both of them openly in the forum and have saved many people thousands of dollars preventing them from becoming victims. The one thing they had in common was they both went into rants to justify their scams. You are doing exactly that.

Until you can prove otherwise I will caution anyone to avoid contacting you outside the forum. Scammers steer their victims to websites and emails to isolate them before they take their money. I caution anyone to leave the safety of the forum when contacting someone who claims they can get you out of your contract. There is nothing that can't be openly discussed. If they tell you otherwise than run as fast as you can.

I just feel like you contradict yourself too many times both with you advice and with who and what you have disclosed about who you are. I am an owner, no I am the friend of an owner. There are plenty of lawyers who will take on a case because if they get to arbitration than DRI will pay all the fees but DRI will almost never let it get to arbitration. Never pay upfront because there are lawyers who only charge the small retainer and then will work on contingency only, except that if you are out of state then they may need you to pay up front. I want to have a website for firms with verified testimonials, but because of non disclosure clauses that can't really happen. There are so many cons in the timeshare biz but I am not a con and you should take my word even though I can't provide any proof (which is what every TS con would pretty much say).

Unlike most on TUG, I actually believe you are trying to help and are not knowingly a shill for anyone but that doesn't mean it is good advice for most. My advice if you want to go that route would be if you already have an attorney that you trust, run it by him and her and see what he thinks and if he could point you in some kind of direction or if you have some kind of legal benefit as part of a work benefit with a free half hour consultation try running it by that service.

Also if you want to be helpful Susan and write up that guide you mentioned, maybe start with all the documentation an owner who is thinking about going with a lawyer (or up against the TS company on there own) should gather and what phone calls they can make and what they should say to the TS company and how to document those calls. That would be way more helpful than the advice to find a good attorney who may or may not charge several thousand dollars upfront.

@ Don:

"You stated that you never purchased a timeshare yet you claim that you are an advocate for timeshare owners. That raises my suspicions above any bar."

I'm sorry to hear that you believe people only act out of self interest. You must have a dark perception of humanity and that is a sad way to live.

"You provide no credentials as far as being associated with any consumer movement."

I can't think of any reason to share credentials. It has never occurred to me to ask anyone on the internet for "credentials". I listen to people with an open mind. You might be a Dr., a 12 year old, a Nun, or an acrobat. I don't care about your label because it doesn't tell me a single thing about your character. I care about what you have to say. Over time I will "know you" by what I've heard you say.

"Your rants make me even more suspicious."

It doesn't take many words to hurl baseless allegations at someone or to pose accusatory questions to them. I respond to those things with a lot of words. I can be thorough to a fault. It is comical though because people complain that they don't know who I am or what I'm doing. Then when I try to tell them, they are offended by the amount of information I give them!

"The one thing they had in common was they both went into rants to justify their scams."

You've found the smoking gun. I am busted, lol.

"There is nothing that can't be openly discussed."

Sure there is. I started a thread on TUG to discuss whether people were given certain documents when they made their purchases. Tug did not allow that thread. On TUG I also tried to discuss why TUG won't allow posters to share their good experiences with lawyers or why TUG has never tried to compile a list of those good lawyers. TUG actually deleted that post.

As for the individuals that are looking for help, I don't think very many of them want to discuss the specifics of their cases in public.

You are entitled to your opinion and you should voice it as often as you like. It's all good!